I think this is a normal occurrence in the creative process. More importantly, I think it is an essential aspect of the creative process. If a composer were to like everything s/he created, chances are that composer would be not a very discerning individual, and their music would likely reflect that.
One of the skills that I think composers need to develop is discernment; the ability to evaluate whether idea y is worth pursuing or not.
The difficulty for most student composers, as I have mentioned before, is that their level of musical sophistication exceeds their level of compositional technique.
Why? At Memorial University (where I teach), most students don't start formal training in composition until their fourth semester, by which point they have spent years developing performance skills and, once they are in university, learning music theory and being exposed to at least some "great" music (I realize that greatness is a potentially problematic term, but perhaps I will discuss the use of this term in a later post). By the time that most students are just starting their compositional training, they already have a pretty good idea of what they like and don't like in music, which, when applied to their own compositions, results in the phenomenon of knowing that a piece, section, or musical idea is not as good as they would like it to be, but not knowing exactly how to go about improving it.
The solution I typically recommend is to push forward with your musical ideas as best you can, even if you are not convinced of their quality, because it is often only by doing this this you discover the potential of ideas to grow into something bigger or different, or at least something to which you can feel more attached. I consider that part of my job as a composition professor is to suggest strategies for building on their compositional ideas in order to grow/transform them into something they like better.
It doesn't mean you necessarily keep and develop every musical idea you ever come up with; it just means that you often need to work with an idea for a while until you come to a better understanding of what it can develop into.
Should you ever discard your musical ideas?
I don't think so. For two reasons:
- If you have worked very hard on a musical idea, there is a good chance that it has value.
- You don't have to use it right away. You may find a use for it later, possibly in a different section of the same piece, or possibly in a different composition. You also may never find a use for it, but since we don't know whether we will eventually find a place for it or not, it makes sense to keep the idea, but just set it aside for now if you don't feel it works in the particular section of your composition for which it was originally intended.
- There is no reason to throw anything away, even if you are convinced that it is garbage! Notation files on computers use very little disk-storage space; instead of dumping a file in the trash, just put it in a compositional scraps folder because you never know if the idea might evolve into a useful idea in a different piece.
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In my concert band piece I thought it would be fitting to combine the two concert band ideas i had going (the first- the kind of cliche flute motif) and the second- the wind sounds.
I chose to keep these two ideas and combine them instead of dumping the flute cliche-like motif because I liked them both. That's probably why my piece sounds so Sectional right now. But i chose to take one motif (so-fa-mi) and make them related with that motif and with the wind noise.
So... I found another way to use an idea that I thought I would never use again!
I usually NEVER "discard" material... I always keep it in a folder I have for all my compositional thoughts. That or, it stays on my computer in the finale folder waiting to be developed!
One of the things that I like about having a notation program is that you can save something and whether or not you decide to use it again, the computer keeps it there. I found when I wrote stuff on staff paper if I didn't like something it was gone. I guess the materiel form of a composition has a bit of an effect on whether it is kept or not.
When I was working on one of my compositions last term I was trying to find a motif to use and I came across a short idea I wrote a few years back but never used, it just kinda sat and gathered 'dust' in my computer. The old idea that I thought would never work in anything started to work really well in my piece. It was a pleasant surprise.
Notation programs are definitely awesome for saving random musical ideas that one comes across in the compositional process. I create many motifs before sticking with one and fully developing it into a piece. Sometimes I do end up saving my random ideas on my computer for other projects, but a lot of the time I get so frustrated with my inability to develop motifs that I just "trash" it and delete it all together, which can turn out to be an unfortuante decision.
I definitely have the problem of holding onto my musical ideas and wanting to use everything in my piece. They usually come to me at really random times, and I'll write them down and end up with a big collection of totally non-related ideas. I've been getting a bit better at letting some go and realizing that they won't work in this particular piece, but I still find it difficult to make my pieces sound coherent and unified. It's probably just something that will take lots of practice, but until then I'll just keep writing down my ideas and saving them in case I find the right time and place for them.
Fortunately, most of the ideas I come up with fit into the piece I'm working on. I'm pretty sure I've used everything I've ever written. I've had to expand on a lot of it, but it's all there.
I'm very thankful for this because I'm sure I would find it very hard to get rid of anything I've written.
I don't think we should discard our ideas either...chances are they'll be just what we're looking for in a year's time and we'll say "WHY did i throw that out?!"
For ME, it's a case of expecting too much. If I'm stuck with something, or I don't like what I've written, I don't give it time to grow. I think our expectations are sometimes too high. (I know this is completely true for me, maybe not everyone, but if it doesn't sound like a million dollars, we never like it. Which is certainly not a bad thing - it shows we're thinking about it, but I think a balance between the 2 is completely necessary!) There are tons of pieces in my Finale folder waiting to be started or finished!
I agree with Kate - I hear SO many things, but they're not usually connected. Connecting them and making a coherent piece is the tricky part!
I don't think anything should be discarded. No matter how small something is (even just a few chords), I keep it because I could find a use for it somewhere. When writing my pieces I try to come up with lots of ideas. I don't use alot of the material I originally write but if I thought it sounded good, then it is useful to me.
I'm so bad for this. I have a tendency to be over-self-critical and discard my ideas before I really even know what they're about. I am getting better in this regard though. I think that being conscious of it is the key. I guess it's hard change something you aren't aware of. It's strange though, it seems like the more I compose the more critical I become of myself, the more I have to tell myself not to be so critical. Perhaps I'm just trying too hard to make everything better than what I've done before.
In my 3rd character piece I had made my main motif that I was going to use and then one day got this random tango-ish idea and just plopped it onto the beginning of my piece. It didn't fit at all but I really like it so I thought I'd just throw it in there! haha And then it was one of the first things the class noticed - that my opening material was totally unrelated to the rest of the piece. It was sad, but I cut it out and the piece was much more coherent for it.
I find in Sibelius the 'idea' thing is awesome! There were so many times in which I'd try to move ahead in my pieces, but the idea that I was trying just wasn't getting me anywhere. So I'd usually capture the idea in the program before discarding it. Then in later pieces I'd sift through a bunch of my captured ideas to see if they could spark anything new, or would fit the new section or piece.
I am like Melissa B because I find that most of my ideas will fit into the piece that I am working on. However if they don't seem to be working with the rest of the piece I will take the time to sort through it and somehow make it work. I have also changed idea x (old idea) into something that will work great with idea y (new idea. In terms of this I guess it all depends on where you want the music to go and which idea you like the best. Is it worth changing idea x to make idea y work?
With my second compositon (text setting) I ended up writing much more music than I used. The piece ended up being 5 pages but I had an extra 4 pages of ideas that did not quite "flow" with my paticular vision.
I think it is important to keep everything you write as you never know when you might suddenly have a use for it.
Sometimes I have a couple of ideas floating around in my head, but I usually try to write them all out so I can find a way to use them all, and if I can't, then try to use them for something else.
During both of the compositions this semester I had an x idea which I really liked, and then a could other y and z ideas that didn't seem to fit anywhere. I also have trouble developing and expanding on my ideas. I never seem to know how far is too far, or visa versa.
I would never discard anything (it'll come in handy SOME time) and I do like writing on a notation software, because it is so easy to save and organize.
In the end, especially on my second composition, I really just tried to keep going with my ideas, and just push ahead. Most times I think it worked out well!
This post made me feel a little better about all of my unfinished compositions. Before taking composition I had a tendency to start working with a musical idea and then almost immediately discard it, I think mostly because I was afraid of my own ineptitude. I think this course has taught me that with perserverence I can learn something from every musical idea and that I can create something of value if I just push forward enough. I think that that's not really something I knew before. We're not encouraged to be composers before third year university and I guess I just ended up thinking it was because I didn't have the capability to.
I believe that nothing should be discarded, and that is is not exactly the same as saying that everything should be kept.
With cheap storage of data, it's easy to justify the recording of all practices and improvisations in an effort to 'keep' all ideas. However, the task of categorizing all of this information can become quite large. Additionally, searching through of all of this data and finding that seed of an idea later on can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
I think we should use discernment in deciding what to actively 'keep', but once something has been written down or recorded it should never be actively 'discarded'.
It is really frustrating when you come up with something great, only to come to the realisation that it in no way fits with the rest of your piece. At that point it's sometimes hard to keep that little fragment stashed away somewhere, even if I like it, because I get so annoyed with it not working. I usually immediately change it into something else and then forget what the original thing was. Maybe that's just me...
I agree with your opinions Dr. Ross! In my percussion piece, I wasn't happy with how the middle section was progressing, so I restarted the section with a new syncopated rhythmic motive, but I kept my old material on hand. As I continued composing, I realized that the material I had taken out would work in a latter part of that same section, and I was really pleased with how it was progressing. So, I do believe that there's no such thing as "bad musical ideas," as in the right context they can work and produce great results!
Really enjoyed reading this post! One of my most prized possessions, one that I carry with me at all times is a small musical sketchbook. I started jotting down one or two bar ideas and the book is slowly filling up with notes and sketches for pieces and illustrations of ideas that are only small seeds waiting to be planted. Another fantastic asset that I use to keep track of my musical ideas is an iPad app called Notion, a rudimentary notation software that lets me get music down quickly and easily. I find it particularly useful in the mornings when some idea blossomed during the night and I don't want to forget about it. With these tools, I have almost a scrapbook of musical materials that I can always access and take inspiration from. Some of these 2 bar phrases have become 200 bars of music, and some are still waiting to be expanded. I think it is important for composers to keep track of all these little ideas, and most of the time, something good always comes from them.
I think that good composers are able to use their critical skills as effectively on their own compositions as they are on others.
This is a very difficult thing to do because of the fact that we develop a strong personal connection to our own ideas. I think the benefit is that once an idea is detached from you and you can view it objectively, you are better able to see that idea in context, and recognize when and where it fits, and when and where it doesn't.
Perhaps there is value in applying Dr. Ross' "composition toolbox" analogy here. If our techniques are the tools, then the ideas are the bricks, wood, and clay. A carpenter who is strongly attached to a particular piece of wood might fail to recognize how it won't fit the frame and could potentially cause structural collapse. On the other hand, he might really love the look of that exposed brick in the den, so as long as no one else can tell the wall is uninsulated and hazardous, he can get away with it.
I'm guilty of discarding too many ideas. I'll go through many ideas but once the piece is handed in I usually scrap all the excess material not used. Apparently that's not cool... Damn lol It's hard to think ahead in a way that would allow to say, this doesn't really work in my piece now but maybe it could. I definitely need to work on sticking with material longer.
I very rarely discard ideas, but sometimes this is a problem for me. I tend to have a very large of ideas of varying quality. Since I don't discard them, I have vast scrapyards of unused ideas, both on paper and on my computer. In a lot of ways this is good, as it's a resource I can draw from. But sometimes I find the sheer number of scraps and snippets somewhat overwhelming; I feel like I HAVE to do something with every idea. My ideas folder can be a bit paralyzing in that it's just too much to know what to do with. I don't plan on getting rid of it though. It's good to have it as an option to draw on when composing, and if I don't feel like using it, then I don't have to.
I think this has a lot of truth to it. I know as a composer, and other composers I work with do have great ideas, and know how they want a certain piece to turn out, however having the compositional "Chops" is another story. As for never throwing away material, this is something I haven't experienced. I have come up with ideas, some I've liked, and some that I haven't, and the ones that I haven't I have simply discarded. I did so because it possibly wasn't what I thought would capture the piece I was writing.
Thinking about it now, the real problem was probably that I simply didn't have the Chops to develop it in an effective way. After reading this post, I will definitely not discard things I don't like, because as I get better at composing, that idea can definitely become a bigger and better thing.
I think of Johannes Brahms as I read this. We are told that he destroyed a significant amount of his music. A couple of quotes from Wikipedia are as follows: "Brahms was later assiduous in eliminating all his early works; even as late as 1880 he wrote to his friend Elise Giesemann to send him his manuscripts of choral music so that they could be destroyed" and "Brahms was an extreme perfectionist. He destroyed many early works – including a violin sonata he had performed with Reményi and violinist Ferdinand David – and once claimed to have destroyed 20 string quartets before he issued his official First in 1873. Over the course of several years, he changed an original project for a symphony in D minor into his first piano concerto. In another instance of devotion to detail, he laboured over the official First Symphony for almost fifteen years, from about 1861 to 1876. Even after its first few performances, Brahms destroyed the original slow movement and substituted another before the score was published. (A conjectural restoration of the original slow movement has been published by Robert Pascall.)"
This is much more significant than throwing away an eight-bar melody or other such musical idea that could be worked into a piece! On one hand, we can store an awful lot of data pretty cheaply. We can keep a lot of finale files on a hard drive or even a $10 USB stick. There's not much chance that others will see these tucked away files and we can refer to them when we're stuck. However, if we become well known composers, who knows what people will look at on our computers and drives? Maybe deleting things that we don't want others to think of as our composition isn't such a bad idea after all . . . but then again, it would be nice to be able to see Brahms' early compositions!! So I'll stick in the don't discard anything camp. For now.
Hey Dr. Ross,
I absolutely loved this blogpost. I've had many times where I've come up with something and included it in a piece and either immediately remove it or maybe even weeks or months later remove it from the piece realizing it doesn't quite fit. HOWEVER I never ever just completely discard any idea I come up with. I will always either copy and past that section into a new finale file and save it into an ideas folder or write it down (if its less complicated, like a chord progression or cool rhythmic pattern I like) and save it for later! I think that while something may not work in the piece you're currently working on it may either help with something else or grow into its own piece. I regularly revisit my discarded ideas and try to grow them into their own things.
On the topic of having musical ideas that exceed my compositional technical knowledge I find that this can be tricky. I wrote a few pieces in high school not quite knowing what I was doing yet. To combat this and grow as an individual I regularly showed my works to teachers, friends and family wether musical or not to get their opinions. I find that while friends and teachers who were musically inclined could help me with factors like proper voice leading or visual qualities etc. my friends and family who were not musically inclined could give me perspective on how my pieces sounded to the untrained ear and wether my pieces were things that the average person would even consider listening to which I always found just as helpful as the technical side of things.
I struggled with this idea a lot in the beginning of the year. Trying to learn when an idea is worth pursuing and developing or whether to scratch it. In the beginning of this term I found myself using way too many ideas and trying to work with all of them. My pieces came out sounding disjointed and had too many BIs. Throughout the term I started to refine my ability for establishing my basic ideas and developing them through the phrases. So as beneficial as music software is with its ability to save ideas, It can make writing very difficult when you save all of your ideas and try and work them into your piece.
I have definitely had the experience of coming up with an amazing idea, but not having the skill to execute it. I think a lot of the problem with that is just figuring out how to notate it, especially with more complex ideas for large ensembles. I might have an idea for an orchestra piece, for example, and I know what it should sound like, but the texture is so thick that I can't really figure out what's actually going on, and I end up having to discard it just because I don't even know how to begin writing it down. Also, sometimes I think of a short musical idea, but I don't know how to work it into a piece. Usually when that happens, I just write it down and save it for later, when I'll have more skill. I have countless files on my computer of these short ideas, and sometimes I end up using them years later.
I definitely am guilty when it comes to scrapping my musical ideas. Sometimes they just don’t fit right, and then I prefer to start over again. There are instances when I have musical ideas which I worked on for quite a bit of time. If I really think they are worth keeping (which is not often) I continue writing to perhaps build up to the idea. In the event I opt to copy one of my ideas and use it later within the composition or develop, sometimes it turns out to be successful. Unfortunately, these cases are quite rare, and it seems to take me more time figuring out how to get to the idea than it would to start the piece over again. I do find that in the past some ideas have exceeded my compositional grasp. I remember composing a work for string quartet. It soon became quite difficult to work with an idea that I really enjoyed; I had no clue how to expand on it. Over the past year I have started showing my friends my compositions in the beginning stages to get their opinions. I can say that this has certainly helped me discard less of my ideas and has made me just a bit more secure and confident in the musical ideas I come up with.
In the short amount of time that I have been writing music, I have realized that inspiration for compositional ideas can come from anywhere. Because of this, I’ll often think of a cool rhythm or exciting harmony or melody but whatever I am currently working won’t have the same character. I try to write down these themes and I will routinely come back and listen to them until I can either flesh them out enough to start a new project or I can find a suitable place for them in an existing project. If an idea is good enough, I'll eventually find a place for it. Working like this allows themes and ideas to be constantly mixing together in my head, allowing my work to benefit from mental analysis that happens throughout the day, even when I’m not sitting down to compose.
I think it is important for people to find a healthy balance between running with every idea that comes to them and being so picky that they hardly write anything. When people try to use every idea that comes to them, they can often write music that is filled with too much information, and ideas aren’t properly fleshed out. However, people who are too afraid to follow an idea won’t end up writing much at all, which will prevent them from developing their skills as a composer. Finding a happy medium can allow people to learn the fastest and come up with the best compositions.
I agree with your reasons for keeping ideas rather then discarding them. Early in my practice of composition I would sometimes discard ideas I was unhappy with because I felt they were a misrepresentation of my abilities as a composer/musician. Eventually I decided this was a waste of time, as I would often rewrite material that was nearly identical to the discarded work, and began saving unused material. Since I’ve began saving material I was uncertain about I’ve noticed a lot of benefits. Some of these benefits include:
1. If I become stuck in a new piece I can sift through my saved files for a gesture and/or idea that will get the juices flowing again.
2. Like many, I often forget the best way to notate a particular gesture, especially an extended technique or graphic, so having a log of them is an easy way to refresh my memory.
3. It is great way to track your progress over time.
4. It can help you notice patterns (both good and bad) in your writing.
5. It can be a lot of fun to open a random file and start composing.
These are just a few reasons that come to mind right now and I’m sure there are many more. Ultimately there really is no downside to saving ideas, other than the space it takes up on your device (notation software files are typically kilobytes though…) so I think every composer can benefit from saving their unused and uncertain ideas.
I don’t think you should ever discard compositional ideas, for a few reasons.
Like you said in your reason #2, there is probably a use for your idea, even if it’s not in your current project
It might just need some tweaking to work well (i.e. using the influence of other compositional ideas in your piece to make it feel like it fits)
Having a peer or prof look over it and give you ideas will shed light on the idea, possibly giving you an idea for its usage
The idea could inspire someone else (i.e. you show the class your piece, you say you don’t like an idea, but a classmate finds it valuable and uses it for inspiration in their work)
Looking back at old ideas can give you inspiration for future works OR it can show you how much you’ve grown as a composer since writing the idea
No matter what the reason, I think you should always keep ideas. If you actually think it’s not a salvageable option for your current project, copy it into a separate finale file for later consideration. I threw away many ideas in intro to comp class that I now wish I had kept, just because they didn’t feel like a good fit for the piece at hand.
Logically, keeping an idea that does not work in a piece in anticipation of a future project makes sense, as, most of the time, what doesn’t work in one situation could easily be perfect in a different one. However, I have found that I have difficulty deciding to keep ideas that I don’t think fit into a piece. Even if I have worked on it and attempted to expand on it, I often create somewhat of a mind block for myself where I fail to see beyond what I am currently doing. This makes it difficult for me to have the foresight to save any ideas for a future composition. At least now that I am aware of that (partially due to this post), I can make a conscious effort to save what I don’t really like in the moment and come back to it later with a clear palate, rather than immediately scraping it, never to be seen again.
I feel like I often struggle with the opposite of what this blog post is written about. I feel like I can easily get attached to anything I write on the page, and then I feel bad about changing ideas in fear of “ruining them”, even if they’re ideas I didn’t particularly like in the first place. This tends to lead me to one of two outcomes: 1) keeping the idea and trying my best to stubbornly make it work it out, or 2) discarding large chunks of content after spending a long time trying to make them sound right. I find it hard to edit work that I’ve already committed to putting on the page. I guess I’m saying that I find it easier to go for an all-or-nothing approach, either keep an idea how it is, or scrap it and find a new idea. However, this is a habit I am trying to break, because one of the most special things about composing, vs. something like improvising, is that composers have the ability to create musical lines with intent and specific attention to detail. I agree with this post that there is always value in sitting with an idea and working it out until it clicks for you. If the idea was ever good enough to be written down, it’s probably a half decent idea worth exploring. There’s value in slowing down the creative process and working with what you’ve already got.
Personally, I always recycle ideas for projects that get scrapped. This is the way I have been making music for years, holding on to ideas from years ago that didn't make the final cut, and finding a way to use them in a new context. These musical ideas can range from melody, chord progression, or even drum loops. There is musical ideas on my phone that I have made dating all the way back to 2017, sometimes I scroll through those ides to find something that would work with a current project I have today. For example, I had a melody idea from 2019 and I couldn't find a good use for it. I really liked the melody, but I couldn't find a home for it. until I started writing Butter and Jam, the Scrunches piece last fall. Then, I finally found a project where the melody fit perfectly. I find it extremely rewarding using this strategy, and it makes me feel great that these abandoned musical ideas aren't just thrown away, never to be used again. I have recycled so many ideas to the point where they almost feel "sampled", where I would take those ideas and shape them to the point they are unrecognizable to the original idea. whenever I hit a wall while making music, I visit my massive catalog of musical ideas from years past.
Interesting Post!
On a material level, I can totally appreciate that there is no reason for which one should discard notation files of their own music, however little they are convinced by it, and however unlikely it is that they will go on to make creative use of it.
All the same, I find it interesting how our symbiosis with technology has allowed us to slip into something of a culture of informational abundance and permanency. As you say, "notation files on computers use very little disk-storage space". This is inarguable. But I do wonder whether the psychology would shift if one had to resign a physical space in their home or working environment to the purpose of stewarding the least of their musical ideas.
Consider also that with notation software, any "musical scraps" can be readily experimented with or implemented into new works by grace of copy and paste, transposition, midi playback and the like. Conversely, physical documents of these scraps bereft of such conveniences would demand a great deal more attention and dignification before being rendered of any creative use.
I certainly believe that a different material culture would engender a very different attitude to the conservation of our compositional bastardry. One might consider Johannes Brahms, a congenital perfectionist who allegedly destroyed 20 string quartets before publishing his first.
Completely discarding ideas is a rare occurrence for me, however it does happen from time to time. If I truly feel as if the ideas I have been working with are not worth keeping, sometimes it can be refreshing to completely scrap it and start again. I don't feel as if it's always a bad idea to do this, but I think you need to be acutely aware of when and where to do it. There are two main aspects of this for me: time and foresight. The time aspect, comes down to not making decisions, such as important as discarding major ideas, in a small period of time. It's always worth it to stop, wait a while, and come back to your ideas just to be sure you aren't 'tunnel-eared' and thinking that your ideas aren't worth keeping when really, you may just need a break. The foresight aspect of knowing when to get rid of things is a little less black-and-white, as it comes with experience of knowing when you are writing yourself into a corner. There are two outcomes of idea development for me, either I feel overwhelmed with directions I can take it in, or I slowly start having to forcibly contort my ideas into something I enjoy listening to. When I get on the path of the latter, it sometimes can be good to realize that this idea may not be worth pursuing. Again, this decision shouldn't be taken lightly, and it's also worth keeping them saved in a different location for the future, however sometimes I think it's a necessary evil in order to let your truly good ideas shine.
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