tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post1240226049215792828..comments2024-03-28T22:40:25.196-02:30Comments on → Music Composition Weblog ←: On the "hatred" of modern classical music due to the brain's inability to cope...Clark Rosshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13153382609775397798noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post-1892394282837723192024-01-27T23:34:27.567-03:302024-01-27T23:34:27.567-03:30I agree. I especially like the discussion in point...I agree. I especially like the discussion in point 3 of audiences as a group of individuals. I’ve never really thought about it as discussing audiences as a monolith, but upon thinking about it, that type of assessing the feedback and applying the conclusions to the entire demographic is basically just treating the audience as a single entity. Especially when taking bias into account. Most of the articles that I’ve seen either arguing against or for more 20th century style contemporary music seems to have the clear bias from the side it was written by, be that composer or hater. <br /><br />Although I can’t access the actual article beyond the paywall, the implications that you mention seem to imply a comparison to classical era music. One thing that confuses me in this type of article is if there’s almost no discussion of the state of classical era music, just that modern music is ‘hated.’ However, I feel that if you’re going to compare 20th century and other more contemporary classical music to classical era music, it's important to mention that classical era music isn’t extremely popular and may be considered boring by many people in the present day. It seems unbalanced to justify the faults of something that is supposedly ‘widely hated’ by juxtaposing it against the good qualities of something that is generally more palatable but has somewhat fallen out of style. <br /><br />On a less critical note, I think that semi-popular is a cool way to describe things! Not everything needs to be widely adored to be worthwhile or good.<br />Madison Brayenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post-49163056241012461192023-02-28T22:17:28.632-03:302023-02-28T22:17:28.632-03:30Forgot to put my name on my post. I (Eda Lu) wrote...Forgot to put my name on my post. I (Eda Lu) wrote the above comment.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02546905669059742261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post-27921124118987629332023-02-28T22:16:05.684-03:302023-02-28T22:16:05.684-03:30I agree with all of the points you make here. I th...I agree with all of the points you make here. I think it’s quite telling that the author of the article only cites Webern and Schoenberg as examples of “modern classical music.” It’s clear that they have not kept up with what was actually happening in the music scene in 2010. Even back then, experimental music had a place among general audiences, especially among the rock and indie scenes.<br /><br />Another issue I have with this article (and many others like it) is how they try to use science to justify their biases. The article quotes studies done by universities to study how the brain reacts to different types of music, but fails to make a solid connection between how that correlates with pleasure or enjoyment. Instead, it simply states these findings next to hypotheses of a few professors, and the author’s own conclusions.<br /><br />Personally I love music that challenges me (disrupts my brainwaves!), and I doubt that I am the only one who shares that sentiment. It’s especially interesting to read this article in 2023, because in 2010 services like Spotify had yet to reach their peak. I know now that more people are seeking music that challenges them because new music is so easy to find now. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02546905669059742261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post-35170825033678775752020-10-29T13:59:54.801-02:302020-10-29T13:59:54.801-02:30I have a few criticisms for the referenced article...I have a few criticisms for the referenced article:<br /><br />I think that if the brain only liked things in which it can find clear patterns, no one would find beauty in some of the world’s most famous artwork. The Scream by Edvard Munch, much of Picasso’s works, and all of Jackson Pollock’s pieces have no detectable pattern whatsoever.<br />I think that saying everyone hates something or everyone likes something is a ridiculous statement. There is not one single thing in the whole universe that everyone either loves or hates. Nearly everyone will fall somewhere on the spectrum between. We’ll use modern classical music as an example. My dad really does hate it, as he only enjoys listening to country music. My partner is somewhere in the middle - he likes to listen to pieces I compose, or in small doses at a live concert, but he does not seek it out for casual listening. I adore modern classical music. So the broad generalization is silly.<br />Most peoples’ appreciation for modern classical music is contextual, even my own. So while my dad hates contemporary music as its own separate entity, he loved the show Lost, in which scenes are accompanied by harsh, dissonant background music to enhance feelings of unease. I love to explore new music and techniques and it brings me great joy to hear something and think “that is WEIRD, I love it.” However, I do not listen to contemporary/modern classical music while driving my car, or doing homework.<br />Cassie Woolfreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15027562502302857450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post-3864696270180173722020-02-23T13:42:00.505-03:302020-02-23T13:42:00.505-03:30This post make me think about the sociological phe...This post make me think about the sociological phenomenon of the masses. I think that there is a tendency to follow what the Satus quo imparts as the true and the assimilable art. Also, I think that there is not a cerebral predisposition to listen to certain music. <br />Who is the population that is tested for decide musical preference? <br />Is like the Weschler intelligence scale. This test seems to be created for a certain population and social class. I believe that if there is a cerebral predisposition to assimilate certain music, is because since we were children, the Status quo imposed certain music tendency on us as "beautiful" music, so our brain could have adapted to certain harmonic patterns. For example, the Ragas in indian classical music has many sounds that exceed the tonal system. People who grew up listening or playing this music has a different perspective and cosmovision about music and sound relationships compared to a person who grew up listening Beethoven´s sonatas. <br />Finally, I agree with this post, there are many tendencies and different music that involves "Modernity". <br />Angélica LópezAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02114334060710427250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post-74917210698671334312019-03-23T20:19:29.906-02:302019-03-23T20:19:29.906-02:30I really like the first point you made in this blo...I really like the first point you made in this blog, which highlighted many composers and provided a useful timeline. I really think that if anyone feels they can write an article highlighting “modern music” they should at least mention composers who are actually modern. I also believe that if one looks long enough within the genres of contemporary music there may be composers who might pique their interest. Rather than looking, people who have heard of the names such as Schoenberg or Webern, might use these to justify their disliking of this kind of music. There also seems to be a lot of accusations in this article that are made apparent through the concepts you highlight. Yet, there is a lack of evidence to support the hatred of modern classical music. My thoughts are that people need to be willing to explore new categories in the field of classical music. It is very easy to say based on a list of a few composers one might not like modern classical music. But, if that is as much as someone is willing to go out and listen to, they will never enjoy it. Not only that, but in order to at least understand, or appreciate the music, one cannot just listen to the piece once and say they do not like it or cannot understand it. I certainly did not have very much knowledge in modern music when I first came to University, but after a few years I have learned of so many composers who I have come to appreciate. That came from being open to listening to composers I have never heard of, and listening to pieces many times through. Nadernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post-9290198954930913372018-03-28T15:15:01.294-02:302018-03-28T15:15:01.294-02:30A big problem, or benefit? of living in the 21st c...A big problem, or benefit? of living in the 21st century is the ability for anyone to create and share music almost instantly. Before the ability to record and duplicate recordings I assume it would be hard to come by differing genres of music aside from traveling to different countries. I assume this led to a very controlled and specific type of music that was being written for western art music. There are obvious outliers of course like Debussy or Ravel who took exotic influences. Fast forward a couple hundred years and we have an endless supply of different kinds of music available to us to listen to. Take one genre of music and there will be subgenres upon subgenres of subgenres. We can categorize everything as Metal, or Country, Or Rap but everyone realizes there are endless subgenres to each. I feel we do not do this for classical music. For quite a few people classical music means Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach. While those three cross a few time periods and genres by themselves. Everything seems to be categorized into classical or modern music. I have heard more "accessible" modern pieces than ones that are not. Maybe New Complexity is the poster child for modern classical music? This may be where the thought that modern music is bad and sounds bad. Does a piece written in 2018 following a baroque style mean it is baroque or modern? <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04779258374013221801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post-69465351458017482382017-04-11T12:08:43.994-02:302017-04-11T12:08:43.994-02:30I too like the point made about culturalization. I...I too like the point made about culturalization. I can imagine that if I was born into an alternate universe that listened primarily to Schoenberg's music the article in the telegraph might have been entitled "audiences hate modern country music because their brains cannot cope." Of course there is no way of affirming this hypothesis but I don't think it is wildly unrealistic. My point is that different types of music need to be listened to in different ways, and listening to modern classical music (which is a too much of a catch-all term for my liking) requires a very different set of ears compared to listening to almost anything else. Some genres of music are innately "easier" to listen to, though, so perhaps is is unrealistic to think about the Telegram article from the alternate universe being titled "audiences hate modern country music because their brains cannot cope." I say this because country music is generally motivically simple and use simple harmonies (I am not trying to dis country music--I mean these as objective observations to the admittedly few country songs I have heard). In conclusion, modern classical music (again, this hideous umbrella term) is extremely different from the music that the general population listen to and is therefore unpopular (I don't know what other word to use. But the blog post covers all the pitfalls of using such a word and I agree with it all. Maybe I should have used the word semi-popular?).Peter Chonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post-38803434416845367892017-04-07T18:37:47.701-02:302017-04-07T18:37:47.701-02:30I think that compared to the other arts, classical...I think that compared to the other arts, classical music is held to a double standard. In the visual arts, to my VERY limited understanding, modern artists are encouraged make creations that are as free or rigid in structure as the artist pleases. That's why someone can pass off both a blank canvas and a structurally complex sculpture as art. However, classical music is expected to not be so simple that it is boring, but not too complex so our brains can still "cope" with it. <br /><br />I think a major difference between coping with visual and musical arts is that in the former, one can look away, while in the latter, one is to a certain extent, forcibly immersed in it (since one cannot pause a live performance to process what was just heard). Perhaps music in general is too complex for a listener to understand. If part of The Telegraph article states that the music of Mozart and Beethoven is uncomplicated, it must be quite difficult for at least some people to truly appreciate music as an listener. This gap in information is filled with subjective filler, and leads untrue and simplistic generalizations, such as "modern music is too complex" or the age-old "classical music is boring." <br /><br />On an unrelated note, I find it very amusing that the article makes a whole lot of assumptions about classical music, but is supposed to explain the scientific reasons behind the cumulative hatred of modern classical music. Pallashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07281153317762642087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post-73740084731772840052015-04-03T18:38:46.215-02:302015-04-03T18:38:46.215-02:30I really hate when people think they can justify h...I really hate when people think they can justify hating modern classical music because they don't like Schoenberg. To my knowledge, serialism isn't even really practiced by many composers anymore. Now, I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a fan of Schoenberg but like you stated... he's not even that modern anyway. There are so many subgenres of contemporary music that if you look far enough, you are bound to find something you like. I personally love very interesting and beautiful sonorities in music, so composers like Olivier Messiaen and Toru Takemitsu are there for that. On the other hand there are composers like Steve Reich, Morton Feldman and Arvo Part who offer completely different forms of musical output and even the three of them are quite different from one another. Then you must consider composers like Ryuichi Sakamoto who writes a lot of music that is very "easy to listen to" but has also done his share of experimentation. Other examples of contemporary composers that people probably don't think of as "contemporary" because the word seems to have a negative connotation: Eric Whitacre, John Williams and Joe Hisaishi. There is contemporary music out there for everyone if we just realize that Schoenberg isn't the only "modern" composer out there. HE'S NOT EVEN MODERN.Robert Humbernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post-43018331900583451392015-03-05T20:40:02.346-03:302015-03-05T20:40:02.346-03:30I'll include my citations, both to be semi-pro...I'll include my citations, both to be semi-proper and to let you see the coincidence which could be taken to mean that New Yorkers in 1965 were really interested in this kind of stuff.<br /><br />Pleasants, Henry. The Agony of Modern Music. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1955. Reprint, 1965.<br /><br />Slonimsky, Nicolas. Lexicon of Musical Invective: Critical Assaults on Composers since Beethoven's Time. 2nd ed. New York: Coleman-Ross Company, 1965.Flutianohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974827781631150812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post-4327322680954262092015-03-05T20:25:54.497-03:302015-03-05T20:25:54.497-03:30This brings me to another book: Lexicon of Musical...This brings me to another book: Lexicon of Musical Invective: Critical Assaults on Composers since Beethoven's Time by Nicolas Slonimsky. It essentially does the opposite of what promotional material does; instead of going through and finding the most rave comments from reviews, it presents the most distasteful ones. In the course of this book, all sorts of insults are thrown about: "noisy and empty pretender" gets given to Wagner (in addition to "advanced cat music"), "horrible chaos and noise" is used to describe music of Liszt, and "unspeakable cheapness" is used for Beethoven. <br /><br />Yes, Beethoven. I don't think any of our fighters against modern music are thinking about Beethoven in their arguments. I think a large majority of people who like any kind of classical music are fans of Beethoven. Yet the words that are used to describe his music range from "odious meowing" to "dull" to "damnably false" . . . on February 6th, 1881 a fellow by the name of John Ruskin wrote in a letter to John Brown that "Beethoven always sounds to me like the upsetting of bags of nails, with here and there an also dropped hammer."<br /><br />The biggest thing that this book makes clear is that there is a tendency to dislike unfamiliar music. Indeed, the first chapter is entitled "Non-Acceptance of the Unfamiliar." When new music is innovative, it is often very unfamiliar. Even the idea that the brain is unable to cope is not new; the music by Beethoven, Liszt, Prokofiev, Scriabin, Strauss, Stravinsky, and Tchaikovsky are all labelled by somebody as "incomprehensible." I don't think there are many people around today who would describe Beethoven's ninth symphony as "the blind painter touching the canvas at random" as was published in the Daily Atlas in Boston on Feb. 6th, 1853.<br /><br />I am risking overquoting, and I think my point is fairly clear. However, I am going to quote one more short paragraph from the opening chapter: "The Phenomenon of Non-Acceptance of the Unfamiliar is revealed in every instance when custom clashes with an alien mode of living or a heterodoxal mode of thinking. The Polish language in unpronounceable to non-Slavs; words in Czech and Bulgarian, containing nothing but written consonants, are monsters to the eye."<br /><br />It's easy to hate that which we don't understand. However, why should we think that modern music is incomprehensible? Maybe we just aren't used to it yet.<br />Flutianohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974827781631150812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post-52618125136067480052015-03-05T20:24:42.754-03:302015-03-05T20:24:42.754-03:30“Modern music is not modern and is rarely music” i...“Modern music is not modern and is rarely music” is the first sentence on the back of a book entitled The Agony of Modern Music, which is written by a fellow whose name is, ironically, Pleasants. I own this book because I’m curious (the library was giving it away), but I have never gotten around to reading much of it. The first chapter makes claims such as “The last really modern serious composer . . . was Wagner,” and “the numerous festivals of contemporary music, the grants, fellowships and commissions to contemporary composers, be interpreted as evidence of vitality. They spring from the same social assumption of an obligation to the composer. They are evidence of decrepitude, not of vitality. If modern music had any real vitality, it would take its place normally within the framework of contemporary musical life and make its own way. It would not need special promotion to obtain grudging performance and tolerant attention.”<br /><br />Mr. Pleasants' book's copyright date is 1955, and the copy I possess was printed in 1965, so it's not exactly a modern book itself. Yet, it is interesting to note that among those that he discusses are Schoenberg and Webern--the same composers used to fight 'modern classical music' in 2010.<br /><br />I firmly believe that Pleasants is wrong, and Gray's article is laughable. The Music Instinct by Phillip Ball probably is, too, but I'm not going to put in the effort to find a copy and check; the quotes from it are enough for me to think I couldn't take it seriously. <br /><br />My confession: I am not what you’d call a big fan of contemporary music: I don’t always enjoy listening to it, and I don’t always have an easy time playing it. Sometimes the sonorities or timbres give me a headache. However, I always try to keep an open mind to it, and sometimes I really, really like it. It can be really exciting to hear something that was newly composed. Sometimes it takes listening to it a few times to feel like it is possible to 'understand' the work, but I don't think that the brain is unable to cope any more than I think that promotion of contemporary composers is evidence of decrepitude. <br /><br />What I find interesting is how ardently and loudly people are willing to discredit our modern classical music.<br /><br />Sometimes I think they listen to one thing, or part of one thing, and then tune out and refuse to listen to anything else that they put in that category. Or else, they decide that they don't like that category and so then they refuse to put music into that category that they do like. <br /><br />(continued in next comment . . . apparently I was 800 characters too wordy)Flutianohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974827781631150812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post-46328292999542194292010-03-13T13:31:26.727-03:302010-03-13T13:31:26.727-03:30I think perhaps some people form a strong opinion ...I think perhaps some people form a strong opinion about something if they've only heard one representation of it. If you hear one thing you don't like, why would you check out more? That's an attitude of many people. I think in general people should experience a wide variety of something before coming to a conclusion of their feelings about it. <br /><br />I think people who hear Schoenberg have perhaps first heard some of his less-than-amazing music, and not bothered to listen to it all. <br />Has anyone listened to his early music? It's gorgeous. Transfigured night (for sextet) is one of my favourite pieces. His experimentation with atonality brought us some brilliant music in this time period. People shouldn't focus on Schoenberg as a representative atonal artist. There are so many examples of great atonal music in the world now. It's a shame if some people don't experience them because of a stereotype they are living by. <br /><br />Many popular t.v. episodes use atonal music- for example, LOST. Amazing music... and mostly atonal. I believe some of the percussion sounds are played on parts of planes. Too cool. Do people realize atonality can be this cool? I hope so!<br /><br />I also find Kate's post hilarious about Tim Hortons- I've never heard of this, but it seems like for teenagers, it would work to get them to stop loitering. Hilarious, but sad, because it's almost like they are mocking finely written music.Kim Codnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15933916493696460386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post-19010464081451561372010-03-04T20:48:56.720-03:302010-03-04T20:48:56.720-03:30I just remembered something I read somewhere a few...I just remembered something I read somewhere a few years ago: Apparently Tim Hortons plays classical music outside their restaurants to stop teenagers from loitering. <br /><br />It just shows the generalizations that people make about classical music and the audiences that listen to it. I wonder what people would say if they started playing contemporary music? Would anyone notice? Do people actually stop and listen to the music as they walk in and out of Tim Hortons'? Just a thought.<br /><br />I also enjoyed reading the second article. I'm really glad that the NSO does a fair amount of contemporary music. There is usually one piece on each program that is modern classical, and I like that. It allows me to have more experience learning and performing new music, and it inspires me to write my own. <br /><br />I think that if more young people listen to contemporary classical music when they are still young, they are more likely to be inspired and want to write their own. It should be introduced into the public school systems, and children should be listening and learning more about contemporary composers.Kate Bevan-Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00015672804281752911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7298312567843426829.post-32625152992767517012010-03-02T12:22:52.121-03:302010-03-02T12:22:52.121-03:30This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com